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jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
YOU: God is not a name and you should know that. Along with this your other assumptions are unfounded as well. But it is typical of trinitarian argumentation and your doctrine is full of such assumptions. They remind me of the methods the WT used in their literature. So I do what I can to help others that are searching for such answers with my narrow minded view as you put it which is why I put together: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/beytrin.htm It helped me resolve such arguments, helped to free me from the distorted thinking of such people and set me free. I suggest that others do much the same for themselves and not follow the teachings of others.
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ME: First, God is a name. Read Isaiah 9:6 :For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be on his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
Secondly, we've had this discussion about the information on your web site which I have looked at in part and as I pointed out then, I have never read a more convoluted, illogical and unscriptural piece of work in my life. I couldn't get past the first paragraph before my jaw dropped and I don't know who you think you are, but I warn everyone again to be careful believing what this fellow is passing on. It has a cultish ring to it and is full of dangerous distortions. As an example, you claim that Trinitarians believe that there are three Gods. That is a lie.
The Jehovah's Witnesses continue to imply that Trinitarian Christians worship three Gods, not one; that they are tritheistic, not monotheistic. The Jehovah's Witnesses draw parallels between the Trinity doctrine and triadic pagan worship which they claim is the ultimate source of the Christian Trinity, influenced by Babylonian gods who were worshipped in threes, the Egyptian three-fold gods of Osiris, Isis and Horus, Italian triune godheads, the Trinitarian Hindu group of Brahama, Sira and Visnu, and on and on (Should You Believe, Chapter 5).
But this is false and unfair. The Christian faith is completely monotheistic, and worship is directed to the only one true God Almighty who happens to have a threefold nature: “We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity,” (Catholic Catechism, 75). “[T]he Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.” Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND16)” (ibid., 79).
Tritheism, the worship of three Gods at the expense of the unity of God is yet another pitfall which the Trinity doctrine specifically seeks to avoid (Oxford, 1211). And simply because the Jehovah's Witnesses are unable to grasp the meaning of “hypostases” or “Persons” does not entitle them to ascribe to Christians beliefs they do not hold.
Third, these aren't "my own teachings," but have sound theological basis for them. Much comes right out of the Bible, dictionary and encyclopedia and are fundamental doctrine. You know, Christianity. Don't let this guy fool you. By all means, read his work if you want to, but think hard about what he is saying. Here is the link to his Web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/bey
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
He had 'permission' -
But if he was dead for three days he could not have exercised permission. Which means he could only resurrect himself if he was God-man.
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
Jesus Christ resurrected Himself - (John 2:19 - 22)
He could not have done this unless he was God.
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43
Lawyer Letter copy to Judicial Committee
by Gayle incharles, smith & bellah.
a professionall cof*qp*.t!on.
attorneys at law .
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jonathan dough
Here is the other letter thread. It is more recent then the above letter
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/118868/1/Letter-to-the-Judicial-Committee
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The legal department probably laughed and threw it in the trash. Hats off though; that is one heck of a long letter. A lot of gums, no teeth.
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43
Lawyer Letter copy to Judicial Committee
by Gayle incharles, smith & bellah.
a professionall cof*qp*.t!on.
attorneys at law .
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43
Lawyer Letter copy to Judicial Committee
by Gayle incharles, smith & bellah.
a professionall cof*qp*.t!on.
attorneys at law .
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jonathan dough
One would have thought that J W Legal Dept. were capable of refuting this. The WT has always maintained that they are within their constitutional rights to d/f people.
If the Barbara Anderson case is any indication, the WT is probably within their rights. DF'ing and shunning alone gives no basis for a cause of action.
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
continued from previous post re Thomas calling the risen Christ "God".
Fourth, Thomas was fully cognizant of the many miracles Jesus performed, in addition to Christ’s implicit and explicit references to himself as God. It truly stretches credulity to think that Thomas thought of Jesus as nothing more or less than a resurrected man. Casting all doubt aside, Thomas knew that Jesus was his Lord and his God. His answer to Christ “forms a literary inclusion with the first verse of the gospel: “and the Word was God” (NAB notes John 20, 28).
Fifth, highly significant is Thomas’ use of “Lord” and the manner in which “Lord” is tied directly to God. Here, Lord refers to God in the supreme sense because there can only be “one Lord” according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7 and Ephesians 4:5. Although Lord (Greek kurios) has a wide application and can apply to men as a title of honor, such a lower meaning of Lord was eventually superceded by the higher meaning after Christ’s resurrection, and this is the meaning employed by Doubting Thomas.
(11) His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, “my Lord and my God,” Jn 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4 and Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kurios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cf Acts 2:47 with 4:29, 30.
(12) How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter’s declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, “God hath made Him - Lord,” Acts 2:36, and in the house of Cornelius, “He is Lord of all,” Acts 10:36, cf. Deut 10:14; Mt 11:25; Acts 17:24. (Strong and Vine’s, 147)
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, “Lord,” is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew” (ibid., 147, 148 (16).
Sixth, as we learned earlier, (see section 23) ascribing to both Jesus and God a role which can only be filled by one “Person” must lead one to conclude that Jesus is God. So, if Jesus alone is Lord in the highest sense, and God is Lord, then Jesus must be God. If both God and Jesus are sovereign Lord and master over all and eternal savior, and there can be only one such Lord over all, then consequently Jesus must be God. Similarly, God is Lord of heaven and earth, but Jesus also has all power and authority in heaven and on earth. These roles are not mutually exclusive as there can only be one such sovereign when read together. Therefore, Jesus was, and is, God.
Given the above, the Christian confession “Jesus is Lord” at Romans 10:9 takes on a heightened significance in that Jesus is acknowledged not as mere man, or angel, but God. &
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
Nowhere does John say that the Supreme Being was being identified by Thomas when he said it.
Sure it does. That is exactly what Thomas was saying. You need to analyze it. I'll put this on two pages.
The Jehovah's Witnesses also contend that even the apostles never thought that Jesus was God, but this ignores John 20:26-29 where Thomas, after witnessing the risen Christ, calls Jesus “My Lord and My God.”
The Jehovah's Witnesses reject this traditional Christian view and teach that Thomas thought of Jesus as no more than a special human occupying a “position far higher” than men and judges who were addressed as “gods” in the Old Testament (see John 10:34, 35 RS; Ps 82:1-6) (Reasoning, 213). Thus, Jesus was “like a god” (Should You Believe, Chapter 9). They also suggest “that Thomas may simply have made an emotional exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but directed to God” (ibid.).
First, this position ignores the common sense fact that Jesus had just appeared out of thin air, risen from the dead, and any Old Testament comparison to special god-like men are woefully misplaced.
Secondly, Thomas was engaged in a direct conversation with Jesus, not God in heaven, when he uttered those words. He answered Jesus who replied to him in return and nothing in those verses remotely suggests Thomas was speaking to the heavenly Father or referring to Him.
Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:26-29 RSV)
Third, calling out “My God” in astonishment would have amounted to taking God’s name in vain and blasphemy in violation of Exodus 20:7 and Leviticus 24:16, crimes punishable by death.
continued next post:
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204
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough ini'll start with john 14:8-10. .
scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.
the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.
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jonathan dough
There is no need to run all over the Bible in order to establish a doctrine that Jesus did not teach and a doctrine that is not one of the commandments our Lord gave us to keep.
Even if that is true, which it is not, Christianity is more than what "Jesus" taught. We also learn the nature of Jesus from other writers, other witnesses and those who spoke of him. Paul's teachings are a part of Christianity. Your version of Christianity seems extremely narrow. The faith goes beyond merely what "commandments" we are supposed to follow. As for what Jesus said, he did say that you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I AM, which virtually every Christian denomination takes to mean that he was claiming divine status, for which they attempted to kill him. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying. The confession, that is, the command, to confess that Jesus is Lord is a tacit declaration that Jesus is God. Lord is meant in the higher sense, that he is God. From a JW perspective, one must ask given all of scripture on the topic how they can believe that He was just a man and nothing more.
Highly significant is Thomas’ use of “Lord” and the manner in which “Lord” is tied directly to God. Here, Lord refers to God in the supreme sense because there can only be “one Lord” according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7 and Ephesians 4:5. Although Lord (Greek kurios) has a wide application and can apply to men as a title of honor, such a lower meaning of Lord was eventually superceded by the higher meaning after Christ’s resurrection, and this is the meaning employed by Doubting Thomas.
(11) His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, “my Lord and my God,” Jn 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4 and Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kurios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cf Acts 2:47 with 4:29, 30.
(12) How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter’s declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, “God hath made Him - Lord,” Acts 2:36, and in the house of Cornelius, “He is Lord of all,” Acts 10:36, cf. Deut 10:14; Mt 11:25; Acts 17:24. (Strong and Vine’s, 147)
“The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, “Lord,” is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew” (ibid., 147, 148 (16).